Severing ligaments -- does it matter?

[Charlie]

Andry Vleeming is a PhD and a PT but as you googled his name I am sure you saw he has greatly distinguished himself as a pure scientist and a leader in the field of pelvic biomechanics, unlike some "other" PhD's we may know of.

I think I may know who you are talking about

HM and Scaredgirl thanks very much for the articles and I should say Violet as well , I did n't realize it was him at the start although I did read it!.

I will read them today and tear them to pieces on the forum tomorrow (Joke! )

[HerMajesty]

Hi HM,
It was indeed Dr. Robert from France as well as as Dr. Ahmed from Egypt who were the pioneers in this field.But the surgery definitely needs improvements to get better results.Sporadic successes with the high risk of developing SIJD issues ,Piriformis muscle syndromes insn't the answer at all.We(the americans) took the V-2 project from the NAZI scientists and who developed the whole space program and the respective ICBM based on their discoveries.
vWernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun and Major-General Dr Walter Robert Dornberger are two fine examples of those Nazi scientists.

Hi Ali,

I think we are talking about 2 different things (?) I was referring to Andry Vleeming as a pioneer of the general study of pelvic kinesiology / biomechanics whereas the Doctors you mention I believe were pioneers in the study of the pudendal nerve in particular (?)

And you have lost me regarding what the nazi's and the U.S. space program have to do with this? Vleeming is not even an American.

[scaredgal]

Lastly , Fatima Hakeen tells you the surgery causes pelvic instability so does she also tell Houston this? I feel if PT's are often seeing this they really need to pass this information on to the surgeons not just quietly complaining about it.

I had one evaluation with her (as I live in Houston and visited the Houston team first). I recall asking her that specifically, but couldn't get a really good answer from her. I actually don't remember her comment, but I do recall she didn't definitely say it causes pelvic instability. (IMHO, and not based on medical fact, because I'm not a medical professional - I believe it possibly can - but everyone has a right to their own opinion).

I do agree, if PT's really see this - it would be good if they told the surgeons. But they may not for three reasons (or perhaps more) 1) maybe because of "medical hierarchy" - maybe the PT's don't feel right telling surgeons they shouldn't do the surgery because of potential instability? 2)Also, it may be anecdotal from the patient's perspective and 3)in many cases the PT's don't see the patients pre-PNE surgery so they don't know if they had issues prior to surgery.

I don't think we'll have the answer on this board.... patients just need to chose the surgeon they personally feel most comfortable going with.

[AliPasha1]

That was in 2008 when I met the Houston team.I know that Stephenie and Liz Rummer were in Houston in Jan,2010 at the invitation of Fatima Hakeem to show them the art of PNE PT and Dr. Ansell joined in later.
I have put Dr. Hibner under the same amount of scrutiny and he welcomed it. I made one mistake by trusting Dr. Quesda in 2007 and I am still sufferring from the gift of" sitting pain" that he gave me.I was running 4 miles four times a week,taking spin classes at the gym and playing soccer with 18 years old at that time.Since his notorious PN block,I have ceased to exercise and didn't get better even after the PN surgery with Dr. Bautrant.

I have lost my youth,valuable time,my career,my job,my weath,my family etc just because the doctors aren't doing their jobs properly.As Pierre QC said that most of them aren't interested in the origin of our pain.Unfortunately,We are just a number to them.Once we sign that paper before the surgery,we place our bodies in their hands and they can do whatever they want to.There are no check and balances after the surgery.They are just taking advantage of a flawed system where the patients become the ultimate victim in this case.

We wouldn't be having these debates if the doctors did their jobs properly ecpecially those whose favourite line is"The French doctors in Nantes do that".So let me ask you this , Sir with due respect what improvements or new ideas have you brought to the table in the last seven years or so when you are very well aware that the success rate is so low.


Regards,
Ali

[Celeste]

By the way,You are absolutely right that the Nantes will say that they have no complications as far as.SIJD,Piriformis muscle syndrome etc.And that's an absolute lie.It's the same way that Dr. Renney told me that there are no SIJD issues when the ligaments are severed, but when he referred me to Fatima Hakeem or one of her associated they told me that wasn't true.In fact,both of them told me that a previous patient that they were working on, developed SIJD issues after the surgery with Dr. Ansell.

Wow, such a memorable appointment and you can't even remember who you talked to, the director or an associate.

Odds are that if you were actually told that, it was a patient who went through BEFORE they started the mandatory PT evaluation. I did learn that 2 of 400 patients complained of SIJD post op from Houston. I've also learned that since the mandatory PT consult, NOT ONE patient has complained of SIJD post op.

One interesting thing about the seminar Stephanie sold in Houston last winter was that the staff said she isn't doing anything earth-shattering, other than counseling on how to charge more. BTW this is the second time somebody's PT has shared the same thing that I've heard of.

[AliPasha1]

I saw and talked to both of them.In fact I talked to Fatima a couple of time later on.I love youe figues but i can't trust them.Have a good night.

Regards,
Ali

[nyt]

Ali, Dr. Hibner and Dr. Howard (Rochester, NY) both do obturator decompression surgery.

[Charlie]

Dr. Hibner has a study of all his patients and he does keep track of them and so far none have developed SIJD issues.

Ali when you say Hibner has done a study has he published it?

How does he collect his results?

How long does he track his patients for?

Did he show you the study or did you just take his word for it?

If he did not show you the study why do you believe Hibner and not Houston?

I mean no criticism of Hibner by asking these questions. Everyone I know who has been to see him rates him very highly. I think they need to be asked though. I would ask any surgeon the same questions if I went to see them.

[HerMajesty]

Charlie,

I don't know the answer to your questions but I did find this document, that looks like it has not been updated since 2004 or 2005, which indicates that Dr. Hibner does do research and publication in addition to clinical work:

http://www.spuninfo.org/index_files/Hibner.htm

Are you familiar with the Biological Abstracts? The paper copy of the Biological Abstracts is available for free use in the reference sections of many libraries, most notably University libraries. As far as I can tell, the same information is only available online for a subscription fee. It would be interesting to look up Dr. Hibner in the Abstracts from 2005 to present, and see what he has been up to.

Short of this, maybe Ali can answer your question through his personal communications with Dr. Hibner.

[Charlie]

Charlie,

I don't know the answer to your questions but I did find this document, that looks like it has not been updated since 2004 or 2005, which indicates that Dr. Hibner does do research and publication in addition to clinical work:

http://www.spuninfo.org/index_files/Hibner.htm

Are you familiar with the Biological Abstracts? The paper copy of the Biological Abstracts is available for free use in the reference sections of many libraries, most notably University libraries. As far as I can tell, the same information is only available online for a subscription fee. It would be interesting to look up Dr. Hibner in the Abstracts from 2005 to present, and see what he has been up to.

Short of this, maybe Ali can answer your question through his personal communications with Dr. Hibner.

Thanks hermajesty. I can't see any any of his PNE papers listed on his website.

I presume this is the only one on Pub Med. Correct me if I am wrong.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term ... 20pudendal

I don't see any mention of success rates in the abstract. That's strange as success rates usually are. I know they are mentioned in Roberts studies.

I presume you mean this website for Biological abstracts

http://thomsonreuters.com/products_serv ... abstracts/

I have always used Pub med in the past. If you can find anything on Hibner on there it would be great if you posted. Don't worry if it is too much bother though. Thanks