Violet M wrote:
Since the pudendal nerve runs through the alcock's canal between two muscles, the obturator internus and the levator ani, if those muscles are tense or in spasm they can impinge on/irritate the nerve and cause neuralgia.
I agree and there is a case study on pub med that describes this.
Some PNE teams can actually cut the nerve to the OI muscle if they feel this is necessary. This results in the OI atrophying and the pressure is relieved on the alcocks canal. In fact the alcocks canal is partly made up of the obturater internus muscle so after this procedure the alcocks canal dilates giving more space for the nerve. Of course you could try PT but as you know I am not a huge fan of that!
As for the 3T MRI which missing my lifes original post was about I think the jury is still out on this one. A similar point was made by SG Grandy earlier in the thread. It is an interesting development but I don't think it should be heralded as the new , infalliable diagnostic tool for PNE. Personally I still think diagnostic nerve blocks are important. Also the point was made at a conference last year that you can never really know for certain if someone is entrapped until surgery. Admittedly it is only a presentation by one surgeon. I have put the slide from the presentation below
Lastly I am not wanting to take sides at all. However I will point out that Greg has put a huge amount of effort into tipna and has helped and supported a huge amount of people. He has helped raise awareness for this condition and in that respect has helped all PNE patients.
I think disagreements are inevitable. This is such an emotional issue. This problem has had a massive impact on our lives, it definitely has for me. People are bound to react as when you criticize a treatment or surgeon you are not just criticizing people's choice but also giving them doubts about their chances of recovery with that treatment. It happens to me. When someone criticises my choice I feel a pang of annoyance with that person. When I am objective about it though I am really getting annoyed because the comment is threatening my belief that I will recover.
My very slight criticism of your comments Ali is that you make some grandiose claims without backing it up with solid evidence. Would it not be better to preface some of your comments with the words 'in my opinion' or 'in my view' cutting the ligaments creates instability. Maybe it does cause instabilty but I think when you state it as a proven factual statement some people get annoyed. When you make big claims you have to expect people challenging you. I fully accept that many people on this forum do agree with your view on the ligaments.
I think it is okay to be outspoken as long as people are polite. Disagreement is healthy. This will sound annoyingly pretentious but there is a great quote - '' I disapprove of what you say but will defend to my death your right to say it ''
Last edited by Charlie on Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tried numerous medications as well as a long period of myofascial physical therapy combined with meditation/relaxation. My pelvic floor muscles are now normal and relaxed on exam ( confirmed by many Pelvic floor PTs) yet my pain remains the same. Also have intense leg pain. Deciding on next treatment.
Charlie,
Do you think that Pierre QC,Ray,Mdavis etc wanted those issues when they went to Nantes or Houston to have surgery.Were they warned of such consequences.What I am debating is to fix the problem instead of denying it.Doctors should warn people of all potential dangers with the traditional TG approach or even modified TG approach especially when the ligaments are severed.It is a great potential risk.Would you like to be in these peoples shoes.
Re: Severing ligaments -- does it matter?
by PierreQC » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:56 am
Yes absolutely, in my case i would say that it does matter if you want to do sports after your surgery.
Look at the situation and use your logic. Try to figure out the pelvis without these ligaments.
Any shocks (like walking downhill) or rotation will eventually put too much stress on the remaining sacroilliac ligaments resulting in an anterior/posterior rotation of the pelvis. Living with a lax sacroilliac ligament can be as problematic as PNE. Your pain is in the anus and back of the buttock, lower back and feets instead of more forward and deep in the perineum. Exchanging one problem for another is not better.
You know, things that should logicaly turn bad, usually do.
Again, use your logic. If the nerve is entraped between two ligaments why do we need to cut more than one ligament to transpose it ??? How could the sacrotuberous harm the transposed nerve if it is on the other side of the sacrospinous ?? Pr. Robert tried some surgery without sacrificing the ST and stopped apparently. I tough it would be the norm. Is the outcome of the surgery better when it open up, slack, the pelvis like that i don't know ?? I hope it is not just a question of surgery time. In 2004 when I had surgery, Pr. Robert could still say that these ligaments had no purpose but after a decade of patients history it is clear that many people develop SI disfunction.
If you go to have surgery thinking that these doctors are expert in everything that concern pelvic pain, then you will be disapointed. They will do a few specific neurologic tests, a few manual exams but as other specialist doctors, they are compartimented and they will not realy try to find the reasons of the origin of your pain.
You are on your own.
So use logic. And shop your health care as if you would do it for the most important person in your life if it is not you.
P.S.: First post in 4 years. 60% better form PNE but SI pain increasing and causing me more and more trouble. Prolotherapy helped a bit but anyway none of the remaining ligmanets are in a position to replace the lost one even if they would be much stronger.
P.P.S.: I realized that the post was 7 pages long after I wrote this message. I had read only the first one. Everything has already been said.PierreQC
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:06 am
Private message
If the problem exists,then fix it instead of defending it.Nobody wants to trade one Pain for the other.
Regards,
Ali
Diagnosed for PNE by Dr. Jerome Weiss in June 2007.Started PT with Amy Stein in NYC.
PT for almost 3 years now without any results.
Pudendal Nerve blocks in August,2007 by Dr. Quesda left me with sitting pain.
Unilateral TIR approach with Dr. Bautrant on 18 Febuary,2010 with no major improvements and sitting is much worse.
MRI By Dr. Potter reveals nerve entrapment in the ST,AC and DN.
Dorsal Nerve Decompression surgery on April 8,2011
Redo surgery by Dr. Hibner on July 18,2011
AliPasha1 wrote:Charlie,
Do you think that Pierre QC,Ray,Mdavis etc wanted those when they went to Nantes or Houston to get it.Were they warned of such results.What I am debating is to fix the problem instead of denying it.Doctors should warn people of all potential dangers with the traditional TG approach or even modified TG approach especially when the ligaments are severed.It is a great potential risk.
I have great sympathy for those people and I am not denying their reports. However they are not strong evidence for your argument. It is anecdotal evidence. What about the many people that did not report instability? I don't think those reports can prove causation. What about the Nantes study on instability? I am yet to meet a Dr that believes cutting the ligaments will cause instability. Filler told me he has cut the ligaments on only one patient but that patient went on to play basketball ( I am not promoting Filler there just reporting what he told me). Anyway we are going down the road of the ligament debate yet again now. I appreciate you disagree with me.
You clearly believe that severing the ST creates instability so lets presume that it does. I would still ask why are you choosing Dr Hibner? Hibner still severs the ST ligament. Okay he attempts to repair it but the repair on the ST ligament is unproven. Does it also concern you that a gynecologist is performing ligament repairs? Should n't an orthopedic surgeon be performing ligament repair? If the ST ligament repair is effective why does n't any other surgeon seem interested in performing it?
Don't get me wrong Ali I really hope the surgery works for you. We are all in the same boat here but I think these are fair questions.
Last edited by Charlie on Fri May 20, 2011 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tried numerous medications as well as a long period of myofascial physical therapy combined with meditation/relaxation. My pelvic floor muscles are now normal and relaxed on exam ( confirmed by many Pelvic floor PTs) yet my pain remains the same. Also have intense leg pain. Deciding on next treatment.
sgrandy wrote:I just read a few pages back and saw your response to something I said, Greg. I would think that a seasoned PNE person like you would understand how alignment issues (SIJD) and pelvic floor dysfunction can cause neuralgia as well as the various causes that Violet listed a page or so back in response to what you said to me.
I asked for this information because I didn't know of the various ways that people could have PN but not PNE. Call me seasoned or unseasoned, doesn't bother me. I had just never seen a discussion on this topic. Violet listed some different ways it could happen and so now I know. I am better off for asking that question.
In fact, you have often recommended in the past that people pursue PT instead of automatically jumping to to the PNE conclusion...
But that was not because I thought they had pudendal neuralgia. It was because I thought they had pelvic floor dysfunction or pelvic floor tension myalgia, whatever they're calling it these days.
how can you justify that recommendation if you don't *see* how pelvic floor dysfunction can cause neuralgia?
See my statement above.
Obviously, if you have extremely tight muscles that run close to the nerve they can most certainly rub against it or cause pressure that would cause similiar, if not identical, symptoms to PN.
Well, maybe it is "obvious" to you, but I'd never heard of it. It is okay to ask questions on here, isn't it?
As we all know, the pelvis is extremely complicated and as hard as it seems to be for you to believe, there can be MANY causes of these symptoms and NOT solely entrapment in the ligaments or Alcocks canal.
Who said it was hard for me to believe? I'd rarely heard of most of the conditions that Violet put up there on her response to me. I think you're jumping onto me because I've rocked the boat a bit on here. My question to you wasn't a smart-ass one, but a genuine curious question. I thanked Violet for her answers. You don't seem to be as gracious as Violet was. Do you have a problem with the fact that I don't buy all of what many on here are selling?
I really do think it is time for you to head on back over to TIPNA and stop stirring up trouble here.
And I think it's time for you to either become a moderator on "hope" and convince them to ban me or else keep your harsh comments to yourself. If you don't want to see differing opinions just don't tune in to "hope". Until they ban me, I'll be looking for people like Ali who have major agendas that could very well be steering others in the wrong direction. Do you understand me?
I'm surprised at how rude YOU were to Karyn who is a kind and valuable contributor to this forum.
Why don't you point out my rudeness to Karyn rather than simply stating that I was rude? Easy to say, harder to prove. And, I see that you didn't see any rudeness from Karyn to me. How startling?
I used to respect your opinion and you gave me several good responses when I used to post on TIPNA...especially at the beginning of this problem for me 5 years ago...but now I'm having a hard time seeing you as anything other than a troublemaker which is a shame.
Again, you've become accustomed to the website that was known for not allowing any disharmony, and that's not a good and healthy place to hang out. Debate is a good thing, but you seem to have forgotten that. If you were on tipna 5 years ago, you definitely saw some fighting and heated exchanges. Now, though, disagreements are seem as bad. People who post others personal information are somehow seen as good people and those who are irritated by that are seen as villains. People who question the wisdom of what the masses believe are seen as "troublemakers". You probably should have never left Tipna.
It's because you're part of the groupthink people. Let me guess. You think that Dr. Hibner is the best PN doctor and that everybody should go to him, right? You know, while you consider me to be a troublemaker,
Frankly, I don't quite understand why the mods are allowing this to continue...it is taking away from the important posts on the forum...namely, people who are seeking help. Your ongoing battle with Ali serves virtually no valuable purpose or contribution to this forum.
You know how the newspaper has many different articles and sections of it? Well, consider this website to be a newspaper with different writers on it. If people don't like to read what I write, you know what? They can just skip over it.
Also, if I didn't question and challenge many of Ali's comments, then none of you would know that he is telling little fibs. So tell me, would you rather have harmony and get fed a bunch of lies by people like Ali, or would you rather have some true debate about the issues that could make the difference between which surgery one chooses to have?
Had surgery in Nantes, France in 2001 with Professor Robert. I advocate physical therapy with PTs who specialize in the pelvic floor. I also advocate injections to help diagnose PN and I am in favor of having PN surgery to release the nerve when the diagnoses points to an entrapped nerve.
Quote from Pierre about ligament damage and repair:
3- No and i would realy want to know how a doctor could know which tension to give to a new reattached sacroilliac... (believing that with time, cutted ligaments shorten and decay.)
Ali,
As you've done now about 3 times, you take the time to pick the quote from Pierre that you like, but you continue to fail to include his comment about the ligament repair. You seem to consider him to be an expert in this regard, so we may as well include his comment above regarding what he thinks about repairing or reattaching a ligament.
Always,
Greg
Had surgery in Nantes, France in 2001 with Professor Robert. I advocate physical therapy with PTs who specialize in the pelvic floor. I also advocate injections to help diagnose PN and I am in favor of having PN surgery to release the nerve when the diagnoses points to an entrapped nerve.
AliPasha1 wrote:Hi Sgrandy,
It's not my nonsense but Greg T creating trouble on the forum,
Not according to sgrandy.
because we never had such" mischievousness"
Again, word of the day.
before he came onto this forum.He is the one creating all the "mischievousness"on the forum.
Do you get a dollar every time you write mischievousness?
Now Celeste his old buddy and partner in crime
So, Celeste and I are "in crime" together? What crimes are we involved in?
has also joined in .And probably she has given Greg T my facebook account as well.
Of which I could not care less. I don't "facebook".
What purpose will it serve if you post my real name on the forum.
Ali now showing how proud he was for providing the forum with various formats of my personal information, ending it with a LOL. Yes, he's really sorry for what he did. :eyeroll:
That is another threat I presume.
I have been also referred to Jim Jones as well by Greg T who was a mass murderer.
If I've done that, show me my quote. What I said was that with something like groupthink (look it up, don't have time to explain it to you), you end up with situations like Jim Jones. But, if, as you say I referred to you as Jim Jones, please find it and copy it here for all to see. Yet another in a long line of "Ali's tall tales"
Now, imagine that this same person is feeding you all medical information, information which many of you are all gulping down much like those with Jim Jones did.
Okay, there it is. If you know how to read and how to comprehend, you can easily see that I didn't call you Jim Jones. I am saying that people on here are making the assumption that the things you say are true and they are "gulping down what you say like those with Jim Jones did". See the difference? Probably not.
He should head back to TIPNA as you suggested and should be banned for creating this "mischievousness".
I know how you'd like for your little white ones to go unchallenged, but only because you are here doing what you are doing, I'm making it a point to stay here and to search for your posts to make sure that I intervene when you begin "doing your thing".
I am sure Sgrandy that you will get a rude reply like poor Karyn got
Oh, and how is "poor Karyn" doing, by the way? Is she okay? She seems like she can handle herself, Ali. Strength is not a trait found only in males.
from this uncultured,uncivilized man.
Who can at least type and spell.
I am also done with him like poor Karyn is.
I highly doubt that.
Kind Regards ,
Ali
Had surgery in Nantes, France in 2001 with Professor Robert. I advocate physical therapy with PTs who specialize in the pelvic floor. I also advocate injections to help diagnose PN and I am in favor of having PN surgery to release the nerve when the diagnoses points to an entrapped nerve.
paulette wrote:sgrandy,
You stated that if pudendal neuralgia is not caused by the nerve being entrapped, then all the pudendal release surgery in the world would do no good. Do you know if when a surgeon opens up the sacrotuberous ligament, (TG approach), and finds that the nerve is not entrapped in the ligament, does he still cut the SS ligament? It seems that even if PN was caused by something like tight muscles, cutting the SS ligament would give the nerve some extra room. What do you think?
Paulette,
In case of prof.Robert, yes, he cuts the SS ligament no matter what. According to what he wrote, it allows him to transpose the nerve away and into fatty tissue and thus gain a few centimeters of slack. Dr.Weiss also told me that an inflamed nerve gets wider and shorter therefore it tends to get stuck on its course. Dr.Robert addresses the issue that way.
2002 PN pain started following a fall on a wet marble floor
2004 Headache in the pelvis clinic. Diagnosed with PNE by Drs. Jerome Weiss, Stephen Mann, and Rodney Anderson
2004-2007 PT, Botox, diagnosed with PNE by Dr. Sheldon Jordan
2010 MRN and 3T MRI showing PNE. Diagnosed with PNE by Dr. Aaron Filler. 2 failed PNE surgeries.
2011-2012 Horrific PN pain.
2013 Experimented with various Mind-body modalities
3/2014 Significantly better
11/2014 Cured. No pain whatsoever since
Just my two cents. Greg, you accuse Ali of making grandiose statements yet respond with The same kind of sweeping statements that we are all "koolaid drinkers." That offends me and I'm sure the other people on this forum. We are adults and we can decide for ourselves whether we think ligaments being cut is important or not. We don't need you here harassing our members every time they post something that you don't agree with.
As far as saying that Karyn is unfriendly, that is completely ridiculous. I have never seen her be unfriendly. In fact, what she said was that she was done with you because you refuse to stop this silly game of yours.
The only objective post I've seen on this thread was Charlie's.
Greg you have filled up this thread with a lot of bs that really has nothing to do with the topic and it makes it rather unpleasant to come here for help if every other thread I read has all this arguing going on. You really are showing a rather obnoxious side of yourself.
Oh and I'm done too. Sorry if that makes me unfriendly but I really don't need the added aggravation!
Burning vulva pain began 10/09
Treated for SIJD 9/10 and burning stopped and pain localized to rt side
Surgery w/ Dr Dellon 5/11 - didn't help my pain
2012 - PT, massage therapy, and ART therapy from chiropractor
MRI showed labral tear and US of groin found hernias
2/13 - surgery for sports hernia
5/13 - still have obturator internus spasms
5/13 - appt with ortho spine dr
8/16/13 - Arthroscopic surgery to rt hip for FAI and torn labrum
Hi everyone I am quite upset about my trip to Arizonia still it was a nightmare.. so here I am on my own again getting more more depressed. This is what happens. Before I went down there Dr. Hibner told me to see Loretta the day before well Loretta was not there that week so Lisa Wadsworth or whatever her name is said Dr. Hibner said I could see SARA. So I saw sara and she dx. me with pn muscle weakness and balance problems.. Ok whatever next day saw Dr. Hibner very nice man listened to what I had to say about this hell journey, gave him my mri from Dr. Potter and like a stupid person I asked if I could have a Mri with his radioogist just to see what he sees. I wish I never did that. Getting back to the appt with Dr. Hibner and gave me vaginal blocks with lidocaine and it really made me numb for the first time I got numb, no pn blocks ever did. I was happy. But the lidocaine made me hallucinete really bad and the injections caused me so much pain I was screaming. So I was admitted into St Jospehs hopsital for pain management,, Very nice hopsital nice nurses Dan slept there every night. Anyways so I am in the hospital strung out on Diauid. Saw Dr. Hibner the next day and he wanted to do a larposcopic thing to see if he could see anything in there, so the next thing I know I am in the operating room,, anywyas he sound some aedhsestions near the c section scar but nothing that would be causing me this pain. The very next day he ordered a mri from dr. K so I ha d it done they use Contrast with theirs. Ok had Mri Dr H comes in the next day to see how I am doing and he tells me there is no entrapement seen on the MRI. I will post the report at the end of this. I remember I looked right at him from my hospital bed and asked him do i have pne he said NO i said what about the dorsal nerve HE said NO. I said what about Dr. Potters report he said nothing was see on here only thrombose veins against the vagina.. WHATEVER. I called Dr. Potter right away after he left and she said thats impossible I am looking at your scan and there is entrapments and Im encased with scar tissue. i was so upset and she said she will email dr. Hibner. I do not know what was said , Except she was really upset and didnt understand why I had another MRI done. Whatever! I taked to Dr. Hibner after and he said he has been trying to get Dr. K and Dr. Potter to talk but it has NOT happened and for some reason theey wont. I wanted Dr. K to call Dr. P didnt happen, Whatever.. Next thing he said I want Dr. Goldstein to put in the On Q pump to see if it helps me..This was the first time I ever had a cat scan guided pn this is how it should have been in the first place and i might not be worse now. Ok so he puts the pimpp in and I didnt feel numbness right away.. ahhI went to the bathroom and I was numb it felt like a Christmas Present I was so happy for the whole day, that got back to dr. Hibner and he was glad that it worked. So that night with the pump it stopped working, this was hell, next morning I forgot the young drs. name he is really nice I like him alot, he shot the cather up with marcaine and I was numb again all day, heaven.. that afternoon it started to leak so the nurse tried to fix it she thought she did. This was the day we were coming home.. My trip that was suppose to be 4 days was 12. So I go see Lisa and Lisa is telling me they all leak.. listen lady its going down my leg the cather moved this is not normal leaking.. Dan even argued to get another cat scan well I did and yup it moved so there I go again getting another pump in, well i was waiting for numbness NO NUMBNESS dam it.. fast forward Dan takes it out for me the next morning that was fun. So i have to balls of marcaine with me at home. Yes I am skipping all over the place sorry. When I saw Lisa we talked about the mri's and I told her I beleive Dr. Potters and I told her all my pne friends that come to see Dr. H he beleives dr potters I should have never had a mri. And she said well you did and its not matching up. Then I said what about the patients that matched up with dr portters with surgery. She said Yes thats true but there have been others that have not. O wait I forgot after the other pain pump not making me numb they paged dr goldstein and he came back he was so certain he got it in a better place he even gave me thumbs out when i was in the catscan. Anyways he tried to shoot it up with marcaine right in the cather but nothing. So he is in the one that told me that he was talking to dr hibner at lunch and dr hibner told him he thinks its a good idea to have the surgery. IIM SORRY BUT YOU DONT TELL A PATIENT YOU DONT HAVE PNE NO ENTRAPEMENTS NOT GOING TO OPERATE AND THEN TELL HIS PARTNER NOT ME THAT I NEED THE SURGERY. Dr. Potters mri showed I was entrapped in three places. i had the mri the day after the laproscopic surgery my belly was so distended and i am very thin i couldnt e en see my ribs. Here IS THE REPORT FROM DR OLGA
The reason for the report it says is for FLAREUP OF PN it says
She is comapring this to Dr. Potters
There is new mild edema and suseptibilty artifcat in the anterior abdominal wall. There are susceptibilty artificats in the anterior extraperitoneal space with question of the prescense of the air and or post surgical changes. Since the prior exam there is developing of marked pelvic edema LEFT greater than RIGHT extending to the extraperitoneal space with mild mass effect on the LEFT side of the uniary baldder. There is persistent mild promience of the pelvic sidewall, parauterine, paravaginal venous plexus. There is mild flattening of the bilaterail external iliac vein from mass effect of the pelvic sidewall edema.
There is preserved fat planes surronding the pudnendal nerve in the intraligamentous spacce in the Alcock's canal bilaterally. There is no perineural scarring or surronding nerve edema. There are prominent vessels following the course of the pn and pn branches bilaterally but without asymentry. The PN branch to the rectum and perineal branches are symmetrically bilaterally. There is no structural abnormality or mass effect along the course of pn.
Ischirectal fossa is symmentrical bilaterally. There is evidence of the scarring extending from the subcutaneous layer of the bilateral gluteal region to the ischal tuberosity but distal to the course of the pn.
Sciatic nerve is symmetrical bilaterally. Femoral, orbutar, superior and inferior gluteal nerves are symmetrical bilaterally. The visualized low lumbarsacaral plexus is unremarkable. The pelvic grid, pelvic floor, proximal visualized thigh including levator ani, obturator internus, piniformis, and gluteal muscles are normal in signal intensity without atrophy.
Pelvic osseous structures inluding iliac, scaral bones, proximal femur, sacrollic joint and hip jpoints are unremarkable. There is no disc desiccation, spondylosis, facet disc degenerative changes in the lower lumbarsacral spine.
Uterus and ovaries are not seen. There is susptibilty artifcat in the uninary bladder suggestive of prescence of the air in the uniary bladder. Uretha and vagina is unremarkable. There is no pelvic or groin lymphadenopathy. There is moderate free fluid in the pelvis.. There is small free fluid in the RIGHT greater than the LEFT visualized lower quadrant of the abdomen.
Please note that evaulation of the bowel is limited on MRI exam.
Impressions
1. New anterior abdominal pelvic wall subcutaneous edema and suscepilty artifact. New asymentric LEFT greater than the RIGHT extrapertional edema with trace amount of air in the extraperitoneal space. Correlate for recent surgery performed.
2. Prominent bilateral pelvic vessels at pn and its branches distal to the alcocks canal with pudendal neurovascular bundles asymentry . There is mild flattening of the bilateral external iliac vein from mass effect of pelvic sidewall edema. Correlate with clincial symptoms of pundendal neurglia.
3. Moderate free fluid in the pelvis. Small free fluid in the lower quadrant of the abdomen.
4. Bilateral irregularity versus scarring in the subcutaneous layer of the bilateral gluteal region to the ichal tuberosity distal to the Alcocks canal and with out extension to the pundendal nerve.
SO THERE IT IS AS BORING, AND SO OPPISITE OF DR. POTTERS. HMMM I JUST HAD SURGERY THE DAY BEFORE AND THEN THIS WAS DONE, HE TOLD ME THAT WOULDNT MAKE A DIFFERNECE. I WANT TO SEND THE MRI TO DR. POTTER AND THE DISC WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK. I THINK THIS IS CRAZY. I AM SO upset me and dan are just lost. just lost.
alisa
o yea get this the plan now is dr. hibner wants me to see LORETTA INSTEAD OF SARA CAUSE HE TRUSTS HER MORE!! He wants me to come back have a pn block done under catscan then do surgery the next week if everything lines up. So he wants us to go out there for 2 weeks do testing the first week.. o yea he said botox too but then he changed his mind.. argggg i am so confused.. i dont think i am going to have the surgery.. o yea forgot to tell you this he wants me to have a ketamine coma for five days and he said the best place to have it done is in mexico HELLO MEXICO.. then he said NJ is the 2nd best. He thinks the coma will reset all my nerves. He also told me that BURNING sitting down does not line up with PNE. If I missed anything I will add it next time.. but I think this is enough for you all to digest. thanks for reading.
And I tried to explain to DDr. Hibner that his machine is only 1.5 Dr. Potters is 3 Telsa.. Whatever.
Alisa
